The stunning LINC Library Innovation Center in Greeley, Colo., where I spent the last two days training with the Colorado Humanities Council.
Hi storytellers –
I’ve been schooled.
When I noticed that the Colorado Humanities Council was hosting a two-day training on facilitating community conversations, I jumped at the chance. I lead workshops, speak in public, moderate the occasional panel — not to mention the thousands of interviews I’ve done over the course of my career. Easy, right?
Well, my ego was about to get a smackdown.
Simply put, as Terry Gross says, “An interview should sound conversational, but it’s not a conversation.”
The purpose of an interview or conversation changes the way we should approach them.
On Monday, Jason and LaNaya, our instructors, prompted us to co-facilitate conversations about some deceptively sensitive topics.
Here and in my workshops, I spend a lot of time advocating for specifics — specific questions and specific descriptions of events, characters, and settings. I’m not a fan of rambling, unfocused conversations in my ears.
But yesterday, that instinct led me and my partner, Tracey, astray. Inspired by a poem we had all discussed, we broke our group into pairs and had them ask each other, “Have you been in a situation in which you didn’t fit in? How did it affect you? What did you do?”
I had blinders on. The outcome wasn’t the shared connections and outpouring of stories I’d expected. Instead, a couple of participants were offended: “You directed us to ask personal questions far too soon.” “I was uncomfortable.” “What if I’ve never fit in and I still don’t?”
What we should have asked this group of strangers to discuss was an extremely open-ended, non-intrusive question such as: “What does it feel like to belong?” They could have taken that conversation wherever they wanted, including sharing times when they didn’t belong. Or not.
Don’t get me wrong. I will advocate for specific, well-researched questions in journalism and podcasting forever.
But all conversations and interviews are not equal. The purpose dictates the methods.
This week, I’m reminding myself that the muck we step in can be quicksand — or we can strengthen our muscles when we learn how to pull out of it. “Discomfort is where the growth happens,” Jason said as we debriefed.
What kind of interviews do you do? Are they all in service of storytelling for an audience? Will the product be performative, as in a podcast, or private, as in a legacy conversation you hold with your elderly relative? Or a community conversation about race, gun control, or grief?
Give the purpose and the audience some deep thought before you launch in. Let my smackdown be your far gentler instruction.
When have you gone astray and what did you learn? Share your stories with me and the Sound Judgment community in the comments.
Also in today’s newsletter
A Try This in Your Studio about mining for story ideas; a reminder of this week’s upcoming workshop on guesting success; a warning about press freedom; and we’re back with Sound Judgment kudos!
Curate great guests & be a fantastic guest
This week’s workshop brings producers, hosts, and prospective guests together for the first time to learn what each of you needs to perform at your best. Thought leaders, authors, entrepreneurs — want to do more guesting? Don’t miss this.
April 11: Success in Guesting: Be a Great Guest & Get Great Guests
Every prospective podcast guest and thought leader should learn how producers and hosts select guests in the first place. And every podcast producer should learn what it takes to be a great guest — because you should always be on both sides of the mic. This is your insider’s guide to one of the most important pieces of the podcast puzzle. Note: I’ll be sharing how NPR producers research, curate, book and prep guests for success.
Try this in your studio: Mining for stories
I was sitting with my friend and fellow journalist Stephanie Wolf over a long lunch on an unusually quiet Monday a couple of weeks ago, sleet slicing down the the enormous windows of Ya-Ya’s European Bistro. Over hummus and pita, she confessed, “The story ideas I have right now are mediocre.”
We all go through dry spells where nothing sparkles.
My solution to this perennial challenge is perspective taking.
Imagine a series of doorways into a topic. Beyond each door are rooms in which groups are gathered. Everyone is discussing the same topic, but their experiences, feelings, and points of view couldn’t be less alike. Some made the news happen; others are affected by it.
In the first room, we hear the clink of champagne glasses as people congratulate each other. Laughter spills out the door. In the next, small groups huddle in worried conversations. In the third, a woman is close to tears. They speak different languages, wear different clothes. Whose stories interest you the most? Which stories haven’t been told? Who is closest to the action on the ground? For whom are the stakes the highest? Is there a story in which two of these groups of people meet?
I recently made a mind map of this thought process. At the center is some news — the recent settlement by the National Association of Realtors that effectively ends the practice of “mandatory” 6% real estate commissions. Initially, many reporters concentrated on one impact: Housing prices are likely to drop. But that’s hardly the whole story.
I began brainstorming about who else this will affect and how, depending on their roles in our housing system.
What about the new realtor who now fears she made a mistake changing professions? How about the owner of a real estate school who is already seeing enrollment drop? Maybe the new rules will affect house flippers and corporate investors? What was the courtroom drama like for the lawyers fighting about this case?
Brainstorming some mind maps, Stephanie and I quickly arrived at clearer and more exciting angles into stories she’d already begun working on. The door was open again (and it was great fun).
Try a mind map of your own, working alone or with a friend. Curiosity will lead you to surprising sources and important discoveries. (Share your mind map! I’d love to see it.)
*My initial sketch looked like a first-grader had done it. Thanks to the designer at Current, the trade publication for public media, for spiffing it up. If you’d like to see the article in which this mind map originally appeared, visit my Current story, “How to elevate your audio interviews from good to great.”
Thanks to readers Dave, Debra and Curt for your recent thought-provoking notes on subjects ranging from books on creativity to story structure challenges to a new life returning to the theater and the (wild) difference between interviewing for stories and interviewing as a therapeutic practice.
I learn so much from your questions, comments, and experiences. Please keep sharing.
(I write back to everyone I hear from. Depending on deadlines, it can take a little while.)
In every issue, we give Sound Judgment Kudos to audio folks we feel are making sound judgments choices that improve our craft or serve others.
Our first SJ kudo goes to a host of Colorado news organizations for taking a stand in favor of press freedom. Earlier this week, the esteemed Colorado Sun political reporter Sandra Fish was ousted from the Colorado Republican party’s state assembly. Kudos to the Colorado News Collaborative, the Colorado Press Association, and several others for writing an open letter expressing their grave concern about the implications of this action for press freedom and democracy. Read and share the letter here.
Our second SJ kudo goes to Mia Lobel for yet more hard work on creating a sustainable model for podcasts. Read her article on why the CPM (cost-per-thousand) model valuing podcasts doesn’t work and never will.
Our third SJ kudo goes to two podcasts I loved this week! I was gripped by the first episode of Slow Burn Season 8, “Becoming Justice Thomas.” There’s a reason why this Slate series was handed the 2024 Ambie award for podcast of the year.
But this is all so serious! Need a big smile? Listen to Julia Louis Dreyfuss talk with Bonnie Raitt on Wiser than Me. I couldn’t get enough.
As always, it is a joy to be with you.
Elaine
Epilogue
Seen at Aunt Helen’s Coffee House in Greeley: “The difference between coffee and your opinion is…I asked for coffee.” (Aunt Helen was a wise but flinty woman who lived to be 108.)