How to interview people who don’t want to talk, Part 2

An award-winning investigative reporter shares his tips and tricks on finding evidence and questioning sources with information to hide.

Dec 15, 2024

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Hi storytellers —

It’s been a whole day since he promised to text me. I’m checking my phone obsessively.

Nothing.

My stomach sinks. I’m stewing in an uncomfortable brew of anxiety and disappointment.

I’m feeling as I did when I was newly divorced and beginning to date, checking for some indication that a first date would lead to a second. (It’s embarrassing, but you’ve been there, right?)

But I’m not dating, thank heavens. I’m waiting to hear from a source. This person could determine whether I get “inside” a company whose leaders, I’m sure, desperately want to keep their secrets hidden. This source told me, off the record, a wild and dismaying story of his experiences there. From the outside, this organization appears shiny and clean, downright admirable. But if my source’s allegations prove out, that shiny appearance is just that — a facade covering rot.

That story is what has led me to the place I’m in: Not only are this company’s leaders unlikely to talk, they don’t want anyone else to. My source fears their retribution. He calls them “ruthless.”

I realize I’m not prepared for this level of investigation, this difficulty of finding evidence and convincing recalcitrant sources to talk with me. I need to call in bigger guns, people with more direct experience.

So I turn to longtime friend and former NPR member-station colleague Michael de Yoanna, now managing editor of the Mountain West News Bureau, a public media station collaboration serving Colorado, Idaho, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah, and Wyoming. Michael is an investigative reporter with a list of awards longer than any I’ve ever seen, many for investigations that changed policy and righted wrongs.

Michael de Yoanna, managing editor, Mountain West News Bureau

I have two big questions for Michael: Where should I look for hard evidence of these allegations, and how can I, an independent reporter, persuade reluctant and even hostile sources to talk with me?

Before I launch into his excellent tips, let’s start with a warning about fact checking.
While accuracy is always important, it’s absolutely essential in investigative journalism. Not only will even the smallest factual error hurt your credibility, but accuracy protects you in the event that you’re legally threatened or sued. (For more on this, listen to my two-part Sound Judgment podcast series on The 13th Step, New Hampshire Public Radio’s Pulitzer-finalist investigative series about sexual misconduct in the addiction treatment industry: Part 1: “How to find the truth” and Part 2: “The best defense is the truth.”)

On the hunt for documentary evidence

The following tips apply to the story I’m investigating, about labor issues in a U.S.-based commercial business. There are also allegations of public health violations. I’ll generalize where possible, but your mileage will vary.

First, test your story idea for impact. Are systemic failures at least partially at fault for what’s gone wrong? Learn how the systems involved are supposed to work and look for holes in these processes. This logic will help lead you to organizations with records — and also, hopefully, to lawyers who will talk.
Google is the cheap, easy part. After I heard some allegations, I did what anyone would do — I went down a rabbit hole of Google searching, particularly Google News. (By the way, don’t forget to set up Google News Alerts for whatever pops up after your initial search.) I found a small handful of articles about safety violations for which the company had been fined, including two that made my jaw drop.
My next step, Michael advised, should be to look for records of these violations and others within the federal, state and industry-specific organizations where complaints are lodged. In my case, I’ll seek records from the National Labor Relations Board. I’ll also try to talk with local union reps. In the case of labor issues, Michael advises doing this even for non-unionized companies, since union organizers often hear from unhappy workers and former employees.
Look to the regulators. Think of other organizations that may regulate a business or industry you’re investigating. In my case, because there were safety violations, I should check with the local or county health department and with the federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) for proof of those I’ve read about and to look for more. In the case of alleged environmental hazards, check with local, state and federal environmental agencies, and also with local environmental nonprofits. If your organization interacts with consumers, check for complaints lodged with the state’s Consumer Protection Division, typically a department within the attorney general’s office.
Licensing boards fail and can be manipulated. Are you investigating a person who needs a license to practice their profession? Check with local, state or federal licensing boards to make sure the person’s license is up to date.
Are there victims? If so, which organizations exist to help the kinds of victims in your story? Call them. For a series I reported on opioids, one passionate worker at the state’s poison control center became a wealth of information.
Research little-known laws. Which state and federal laws govern the organization you’re investigating? Learn how those laws are supposed to work and look for the loopholes. Lawyers and advocates can explain common ways people skirt or bend existing laws.
Go to the courts. Might there have been legal actions against the person or organization at the heart of your story? Create a Pacer account to access public court records. Search by the parties involved and pull a tally of relevant cases. Michael warned me not to open each case right away, because Pacer charges by the page. If you find a relevant lawsuit, contact the lawyers. In addition to asking them about your particular case, ask them if they’ve worked on similar cases. If so, the scope of your problem just got bigger — and potentially more impactful.

Getting the documents

OK, you’re saying, these tactics look useful — but how do I actually get the records I need? Again, Michael gave me great advice.

Start by contacting the press information officer (PIO) at the agency you’re querying. Ask for the records you’re interested in. As Michael says, they may say, “We don’t have those, but we do have this information.”

If the PIO tells you to file an open records request, you may feel crestfallen — the PIO knows they exist, but isn’t going to hand them over. But this is actually good news. When you file, you can write, “Upon the advice of PIO ‘Jenny Jones,’ I’m filing this request.” Now the PIO is in the loop rather than being blindsided by your formal request — and they’re more likely to cooperate. Remember, as Michael reminded me, “They have to give you the information. They work for you.”

A word about open records requests: Increasingly, state agencies have their own instructions for filing open records requests. Google them and follow their directions or use their forms. No luck? Freedom of information advocacy nonprofits often offer state-specific guidance or even templates, like this public records request template from the Colorado Freedom of Information Coalition.

“They have to give you the information. They work for you.”

While some reporters love filing Freedom of Information Act requests (FOIAs) and do so regularly simply to mine for stories, Michael advised me to avoid them. There’s no specific deadline for responding and some agencies routinely employ long delaying tactics. (If you do wind up needing to file a FOIA, Muckrock offers a wealth of advice. So too does the professional association Investigative Reporters and Editors (IRE), which is well worth joining.)

Honest persuasion

Finding documents is only half the battle, of course. In Part 1, I addressed ethical ways to persuade reluctant sources to talk, using examples from podcast producers Heath Druzin (Extremely American) and Shannon Lynch (The Alley: DC’s 8th and H Case.) Haven’t read Part 1 yet? Go back and do so now, and then come back here.

As I mentioned earlier, my source is fearful of retribution should he tell me too much, and he does not want to go on the record. I’ve already heard that others involved in this story are at least as fearful. This is common at the beginning of an investigation. Michael suggested a workaround: Offer to speak to a few victims together.

“They check each others’ stories,” he told me. “They have a common cause.” They also recall things they might struggle to remember alone and can work together to identify how systems work and assemble documentation.

Often, simply asking one victim to bring others along will work, and identifies new sources you haven’t yet turned up.

Interviewing the Accused

Everything you’re doing — searching for documents, looking for people who knew your source years ago, gathering victims into small groups, creating evidence timelines — leads up to presenting your evidence to the person accountable for the wrongdoing you’re investigating.

You may recall how thoroughly Heath Druzin prepared before approaching his ultimate goal: getting an interview with Christ Church Pastor Doug Wilson. Wilson’s been on a decades-long quest to replace democracy with theocracy, starting with his desired religious takeover of Moscow, Idaho.

As should be clear by now, the more evidence you gather, the better. “Sources won’t talk at first,” Michael told me. “But the more evidence you have, you’re forcing them to talk. Keep going back again and again.”

That’s what Heath Druzin expected to have to do when approaching Wilson. But his thorough research paid off — almost immediately. As I mentioned in Part 1, Heath spoke with many people acquainted with the now 70-year-old pastor, from Wilson’s college philosophy professor to local business owners to former church members. When Heath finally approached Wilson, he did so from a position of strength. In an email, he explained, “I'm doing this project on Christ Church. I've been talking to critics and abuse survivors, and I want to get your perspective.”

“I was extremely nervous. I thought there was at least a fifty percent chance that he wouldn’t talk,” Heath says. “I was prepared to do the podcast whether or not he talked to us, because I don't want to give anyone a veto over what I think is an important story. But it would have sucked.”

In the end, he didn’t have to worry. Wilson is proud of what he’s doing and wanted to talk, particularly because Heath’s NPR audience is large. He had some caveats: Wilson asked to record both audio and video of the interview. Heath allowed audio recording, but turned down Wilson’s video request.

Heath’s biggest takeaway: no waffling allowed. “When you're reaching out to people, don't say, ‘I'm thinking about doing this project.’ It’s important to be definitive,” he says. “‘You can participate or you can't, but the project is going to happen.’”

The Accountability Interview

You may only have one chance at what Michael calls “the accountability interview” — in Heath Druzin’s case, his initial interview with Wilson. You can gather all the documents in the world, but fail to use them to their potential at this crucial moment. Michael offered me a few more tips for success:

Make sure you have the right people identified in the accountability chain. Who is ultimately responsible for what you found?
Come prepared with documented evidence and a list of carefully crafted questions that address your story’s main findings.
Be direct about those findings. Don’t hesitate to state clearly, for example, “You’ve been accused of abuse by X number of people,” or “We’ve found evidence that you broke X and Y laws.” Offering clarity gives those who are responsible opportunities to tell you more. As Michael says, “Sometimes they’ll take interviews in surprising directions— they might apologize and offer a plan for improvement or offer to right wrongs. (Yes, that happens occasionally.)”
Finally, regardless of how the accountability interview goes, always ask for details on what your source will do next.

What will you do next with these tips? And what have you already done out in the field, talking with reluctant sources? Share your work with the Sound Judgment community: Comment below with a description of your work — and if it’s already been released or published, share a link! We all learn better by example and in community.

[Photo by Kayla Farmer on Unsplash]

🏆 Learn from the best

Read: The “best-of” podcast lists are here! It’s a great time to create your own “TBL” list (“to-be-listened,” my podcast equivalent of the to-be-read (TBR) lists avid readers keep.) Two that rise to the top are Samantha Hodder’s Bingeworthy “Bingey List,” which is always thought-provoking, and Tink Media’s Audio Delicacies, which is particularly user-friendly because the good folks at Tink call out specific episodes.

Listen: To profile someone you’re investigating, it can be illuminating to speak with people who knew them long ago. Learn how from journalist Sally Herships. She constructed a fascinating profile of former Trump Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin for The Heist, a Center for Public Integrity podcast series released a few years ago. On Sound Judgment, the podcast, she and I talked in detail about the systematic process she used to find Mnuchin acquaintances as far back as middle school: How to Produce an Award-Winning Investigative Series with Sally Herships.

My personal Sound Judgment

My mascot, Liza, is here to help me deliver an apology. This newsletter is a week late, the latest I’ve ever been. As many of you know, I’ve been in the midst of a cross-country move. My husband and I left Colorado ten days ago and moved into our new home in Maine this week. Moving and writing do not mesh. Liza is more adaptable than I am, but also lives in the moment. Deadlines to her? 🤷‍♀

Even in my lateness, it is always a joy to be with you.

Elaine

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